I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email.
Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot
even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going
to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X
workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my
personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites
email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far
so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps
hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch
please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make
it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home
or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings
from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were
not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that
IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even
worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

Thanks, Fatima

Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer, i'd really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an in house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied with what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap solution. Not that i will have the best answer of the group, but the question does need to be refined.

Cheers!

Jamie

----- Original Message ----- From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email.
Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot
even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going
to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X
workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my
personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites
email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far
so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps
hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch
please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make
it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home
or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings
from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were
not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that
IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even
worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

Thanks, Fatima

Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution.

Thanks, Fatima

On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote:

Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer, i'd
really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an in
house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied with
what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap solution. Not
that i will have the best answer of the group, but the question
does need to be refined.

Cheers!

Jamie

----- Original Message ----- From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com
studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

Thanks, Fatima __ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins- discuss __ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins- discuss

Fatima,

I came from an Microsoft Exchange/Office background to a Studio that decided after too many Exchange database disasters to move everything to Google Apps.

• A few hiccups going from Thunderbird/Outlook clients over to Google; nothing drastic and all fixable with minimal effort.
• You can use POP and check the keep email on server in Domain Management Console, so it stays stored in both places. We have both protocols going.
• We have all iPhones and Blackberrys setup with our Google Apps Domain email, calendars and chat.
• No licensing tracking to really worry about except $50 a year per seat renewal.
• Included Office. No more purchasing or tracking licenses and worrying about upgrades or compatability issues.
• They are offering a new option where it Gmail and Google Docs will store a copy locally to handle "What if the network goes down and I can't get to anything?"

I haven't regreted it and it makes my life so much easier, than constantly worrying about Exchange.

Trace Bloomer IT Manager Halon Entertainment

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Fatima Mojaddidy fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com wrote:

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

Thanks, Fatima _ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

Hi Fatima,

Here at RFX we switched from in-house linux mail server to Google business apps earlier this year. So far it has worked well, were able to access our email easily from anywhere including blackberries. The office here is using windows live with the exception of me, I use Thunderbird with IMAP. I highly recommend IMAP because your mail stays organized all the time. The only problem with IMAP is that when you have multiple subfolders under subfolders it tends to confuse Google during sync. One solution to this is to have no more than one subfolder in your folders.

One other downside to the email system is that google combines emails that appear to be from the same person, it sometimes takes a few min for the mail client to see it.

Other benefits we have found is the calender, documents, and Sites. We utilize these on a daily basis, were able to share Calendar events, word documents, and even create basic internal secure websites.

The only problem with price is that it typically costs about $50 per year per user. So if you have allot of users it might not make sense price wise.

The only headache we experienced was the delay of transferring existing emails to the new google servers. Once we got past that it was smooth sailing.

Of course the only downside to this is if your internet goes down, but as long as you can access google you get pretty fast results.

Andrew Spurbeck RFX Inc http://www.rfx.com 748 Seward St Hollywood, CA 90038 323-962-7400 323-962-7444 FAX andrew@rfx.com andrew@rfx.com

Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: > Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution. > > Thanks, > Fatima > > On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote: > >> Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer, i'd >> really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an in >> house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied with >> what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap solution. Not >> that i will have the best answer of the group, but the question does >> need to be refined. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Jamie >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 >> Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop >> >> I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. >> Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot >> even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going >> to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers. >> >> We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X >> workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones. >> >> 1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my >> personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites >> email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far >> so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps >> hosting. >> >> If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch >> please let me know. >> >> 2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make >> it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home >> or a laptop and an iphone. >> >> For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings >> from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were >> not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that >> IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even >> worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync? >> >> Thanks, >> Fatima >> _ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss >> >> __ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss >> > > __ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss >

--

andrew@rfx.com

This is very helpful info Andrew, thanks :) Still trying to get IMAP
to sync perfectly and folders are my next challenge. If I have mail
already in local folders on my Mac Mail, and I'd like it all to show
up on Gmail, how do I manage that?

Just found out a work around for Trash, Sent and Draft folders which
were not syncing with IMAP on Gmail. Might be common knowledge but if
you're struggling like me here is what worked.

Under the Gmail IMAP account section in the sidebar of Mac Mail,
select the folder e.g. "Trash". Then go to Mailbox > Use This Mailbox
For > Trash. Did the same for Sent and Draft.

On May 19, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Andrew wrote:

Hi Fatima,

Here at RFX we switched from in-house linux mail server to Google
business apps earlier this year. So far it has worked well, were
able to access our email easily from anywhere including
blackberries. The office here is using windows live with the
exception of me, I use Thunderbird with IMAP. I highly recommend
IMAP because your mail stays organized all the time. The only
problem with IMAP is that when you have multiple subfolders under
subfolders it tends to confuse Google during sync. One solution to
this is to have no more than one subfolder in your folders.

One other downside to the email system is that google combines
emails that appear to be from the same person, it sometimes takes a
few min for the mail client to see it.

Other benefits we have found is the calender, documents, and
Sites. We utilize these on a daily basis, were able to share
Calendar events, word documents, and even create basic internal
secure websites.

The only problem with price is that it typically costs about $50
per year per user. So if you have allot of users it might not make
sense price wise.

The only headache we experienced was the delay of transferring
existing emails to the new google servers. Once we got past that
it was smooth sailing.

Of course the only downside to this is if your internet goes down,
but as long as you can access google you get pretty fast results.

Andrew Spurbeck RFX Inc 748 Seward St Hollywood, CA 90038 323-962-7400 323-962-7444 FAX andrew@rfx.com

Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: > > Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution. > > Thanks, > Fatima > > On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote: > >> Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer,
>> i'd really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an
>> in house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied
>> with what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap
>> solution. Not that i will have the best answer of the group, but
>> the question does need to be refined. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Jamie >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com
>> studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com > discuss@studiosysadmins.com> >> Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 >> Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop >> >> I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. >> Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I
>> cannot >> even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going >> to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers. >> >> We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X >> workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones. >> >> 1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same
>> with my >> personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites >> email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so
>> far >> so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google
>> apps >> hosting. >> >> If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch >> please let me know. >> >> 2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make >> it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home >> or a laptop and an iphone. >> >> For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts'
>> settings >> from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were >> not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told
>> that >> IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems
>> even >> worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync? >> >> Thanks, >> Fatima >> _ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss >> __ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss > > __ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > studiosysadmins-discuss

--

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins- discuss

Hello Fatima,

You have to move your mail manually from your local account to your imap account.

Different email programs do an equally bad job at doing that, specially if you have a lot of folders/subfolders, so it can be time consuming. But if you drag an email from you local account to your imap account from Mac mail, next time you sync it should show up in your gmail account (it would anyway with a standard imap server, I assume gmail works the same)

Imap is usually painless, except with some older versions of outlook.

If you don't like the idea of your company data being hosted by Google, a nice easy/cheap solution I really like for hosting mail is Kerio mail server. It handles calendaring and contacts and integrates very well with Mac/Win/Linux clients, as well as blackberries, iphones, etc... It's all standard based, with a nice ui and installer.

http://www.kerio.com

No, we don't sell that so it's not a shameless plug ;-)

Sebastien

----- Original Message ----- From: Fatima Mojaddidy [mailto:fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com] To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Sent: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: Re: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop

This is very helpful info Andrew, thanks :) Still trying to get IMAP
to sync perfectly and folders are my next challenge. If I have mail
already in local folders on my Mac Mail, and I'd like it all to show
up on Gmail, how do I manage that?

Just found out a work around for Trash, Sent and Draft folders which
were not syncing with IMAP on Gmail. Might be common knowledge but if
you're struggling like me here is what worked.

Under the Gmail IMAP account section in the sidebar of Mac Mail,
select the folder e.g. "Trash". Then go to Mailbox > Use This Mailbox
For > Trash. Did the same for Sent and Draft.

On May 19, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Andrew wrote:

Hi Fatima,

Here at RFX we switched from in-house linux mail server to Google
business apps earlier this year. So far it has worked well, were
able to access our email easily from anywhere including
blackberries. The office here is using windows live with the
exception of me, I use Thunderbird with IMAP. I highly recommend
IMAP because your mail stays organized all the time. The only
problem with IMAP is that when you have multiple subfolders under
subfolders it tends to confuse Google during sync. One solution to
this is to have no more than one subfolder in your folders.

One other downside to the email system is that google combines
emails that appear to be from the same person, it sometimes takes a
few min for the mail client to see it.

Other benefits we have found is the calender, documents, and
Sites. We utilize these on a daily basis, were able to share
Calendar events, word documents, and even create basic internal
secure websites.

The only problem with price is that it typically costs about $50
per year per user. So if you have allot of users it might not make
sense price wise.

The only headache we experienced was the delay of transferring
existing emails to the new google servers. Once we got past that
it was smooth sailing.

Of course the only downside to this is if your internet goes down,
but as long as you can access google you get pretty fast results.

Andrew Spurbeck RFX Inc 748 Seward St Hollywood, CA 90038 323-962-7400 323-962-7444 FAX andrew@rfx.com

Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: > > Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution. > > Thanks, > Fatima > > On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote: > >> Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer,
>> i'd really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an
>> in house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied
>> with what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap
>> solution. Not that i will have the best answer of the group, but
>> the question does need to be refined. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Jamie >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com
>> studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com > discuss@studiosysadmins.com> >> Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 >> Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop >> >> I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. >> Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I
>> cannot >> even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going >> to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers. >> >> We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X >> workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones. >> >> 1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same
>> with my >> personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites >> email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so
>> far >> so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google
>> apps >> hosting. >> >> If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch >> please let me know. >> >> 2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make >> it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home >> or a laptop and an iphone. >> >> For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts'
>> settings >> from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were >> not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told
>> that >> IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems
>> even >> worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync? >> >> Thanks, >> Fatima >> _ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss >> __ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss > > __ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > studiosysadmins-discuss

--

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins- discuss

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

I will echo Sebastien's response about Kerio Mail Server. I've been
hosting my own mail on KMS at home for the past year. It works very
nicely, and is tightly integrated with iPhone and Windows Mobile via
ActiveSync. Blackberry support for email is via IMAP and BIS; full
Blackberry integration is via 3rd party software from Notify. Their
webmail interface is really nice, too.

I'm running KMS on an inexpensive Mac Mini with OS X 10.5 Server
(works well on non-server versions and other OS's, too). I think I
paid about $600 for a 15 user license (no integrated anti-virus). The
cheapest place I had found it was CDW. If you don't mind running your
own server (may be cheaper than gmail), I would encourage you to check
out KMS.

I'm a user, not a reseller. ;-)

Sent from an Apple mobile device

On May 19, 2009, at 7:05 PM, "Sebastien Bertrand" wrote:

Hello Fatima,

You have to move your mail manually from your local account to your
imap account.

Different email programs do an equally bad job at doing that,
specially if you have a lot of folders/subfolders, so it can be time
consuming. But if you drag an email from you local account to your
imap account from Mac mail, next time you sync it should show up in
your gmail account (it would anyway with a standard imap server, I
assume gmail works the same)

Imap is usually painless, except with some older versions of outlook.

If you don't like the idea of your company data being hosted by
Google, a nice easy/cheap solution I really like for hosting mail is
Kerio mail server. It handles calendaring and contacts and
integrates very well with Mac/Win/Linux clients, as well as
blackberries, iphones, etc... It's all standard based, with a nice
ui and installer.

http://www.kerio.com

No, we don't sell that so it's not a shameless plug ;-)

Sebastien

----- Original Message ----- From: Fatima Mojaddidy [mailto:fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com] To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Sent: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: Re: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop

This is very helpful info Andrew, thanks :) Still trying to get IMAP to sync perfectly and folders are my next challenge. If I have mail already in local folders on my Mac Mail, and I'd like it all to show up on Gmail, how do I manage that?

Just found out a work around for Trash, Sent and Draft folders which were not syncing with IMAP on Gmail. Might be common knowledge but if you're struggling like me here is what worked.

Under the Gmail IMAP account section in the sidebar of Mac Mail, select the folder e.g. "Trash". Then go to Mailbox > Use This Mailbox For > Trash. Did the same for Sent and Draft.

On May 19, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Andrew wrote:

Hi Fatima,

Here at RFX we switched from in-house linux mail server to Google business apps earlier this year. So far it has worked well, were able to access our email easily from anywhere including blackberries. The office here is using windows live with the exception of me, I use Thunderbird with IMAP. I highly recommend IMAP because your mail stays organized all the time. The only problem with IMAP is that when you have multiple subfolders under subfolders it tends to confuse Google during sync. One solution to this is to have no more than one subfolder in your folders.

One other downside to the email system is that google combines emails that appear to be from the same person, it sometimes takes a few min for the mail client to see it.

Other benefits we have found is the calender, documents, and Sites. We utilize these on a daily basis, were able to share Calendar events, word documents, and even create basic internal secure websites.

The only problem with price is that it typically costs about $50 per year per user. So if you have allot of users it might not make sense price wise.

The only headache we experienced was the delay of transferring existing emails to the new google servers. Once we got past that it was smooth sailing.

Of course the only downside to this is if your internet goes down, but as long as you can access google you get pretty fast results.

Andrew Spurbeck RFX Inc 748 Seward St Hollywood, CA 90038 323-962-7400 323-962-7444 FAX andrew@rfx.com

Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: > > Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution. > > Thanks, > Fatima > > On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote: > >> Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer, >> i'd really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an >> in house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied >> with what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap >> solution. Not that i will have the best answer of the group, but >> the question does need to be refined. >> >> Cheers! >> >> Jamie >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com >> To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com > discuss@studiosysadmins.com> >> Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 >> Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop >> >> I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of
>> email. >> Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I >> cannot >> even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just
>> going >> to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers. >> >> We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X >> workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones. >> >> 1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same >> with my >> personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal
>> sites >> email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so >> far >> so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google >> apps >> hosting. >> >> If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch >> please let me know. >> >> 2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to
>> make >> it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at
>> home >> or a laptop and an iphone. >> >> For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' >> settings >> from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail
>> were >> not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told >> that >> IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems >> even >> worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync? >> >> Thanks, >> Fatima >> _ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss >> __ >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> studiosysadmins-discuss > > __ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > studiosysadmins-discuss

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Hi I'm new to the group here but have been using both our own hosted 'Icewarp' email and gmail for a couple of years now.

We are very pleased with google mail for domains. There are several issues that we have with gmail.

We send hundreds of video files from some accounts. Google has blocked these accounts based on traffic. They block the account with no notice and it takes a lot to get through to their support and have it corrected. Since then we have a 'video' account for send and a different one for receive.

If you are sending from one-time accounts or 'made up sender names, they will often be marked as spam by the recipient. We needed to create real accounts for 'no-reply@', 'updates@' etc. $50 starts to add up when you are paying for lots of 'housekeeping' accounts.

We love the postini but you have to remember to add every alias to postini as well.

The 'priority' support is overwhelmed and they still haven't caught up.

Google calendar works very well for us. We have Sugar CRM and tried many programs and Old outlook but for our users Google is easier.

Most people love the web interface but some still want to use the client they like.

There is a learning curve with the 'collapsing' of threads. You need to train your users to open each to see if a specific reply is buried in the mail avalanche of some threads.

The best reason for me, is when people want to gripe, you can say 'just call Google and tell them'. Ok... You can think it!

Hello Fatima, > > You have to move your mail manually from your local account to your imap > account. > > Different email programs do an equally bad job at doing that, specially if > you have a lot of folders/subfolders, so it can be time consuming. But if > you drag an email from you local account to your imap account from Mac mail, > next time you sync it should show up in your gmail account (it would anyway > with a standard imap server, I assume gmail works the same) > > Imap is usually painless, except with some older versions of outlook. > > If you don't like the idea of your company data being hosted by Google, a > nice easy/cheap solution I really like for hosting mail is Kerio mail > server. It handles calendaring and contacts and integrates very well with > Mac/Win/Linux clients, as well as blackberries, iphones, etc... It's all > standard based, with a nice ui and installer. > > http://www.kerio.com > > No, we don't sell that so it's not a shameless plug ;-) > > Sebastien > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fatima Mojaddidy > [mailto:fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com] > To: > studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com > Sent: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:31:21 > -0400 > Subject: Re: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop > > > > This is very helpful info Andrew, thanks :) Still trying to get IMAP > > to sync perfectly and folders are my next challenge. If I have mail > > already in local folders on my Mac Mail, and I'd like it all to show > > up on Gmail, how do I manage that? > > > > Just found out a work around for Trash, Sent and Draft folders which > > were not syncing with IMAP on Gmail. Might be common knowledge but if > > you're struggling like me here is what worked. > > > > Under the Gmail IMAP account section in the sidebar of Mac Mail, > > select the folder e.g. "Trash". Then go to Mailbox > Use This Mailbox > > For > Trash. Did the same for Sent and Draft. > > > > On May 19, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Andrew wrote: > > > > > Hi Fatima, > > > > > > Here at RFX we switched from in-house linux mail server to Google > > > business apps earlier this year. So far it has worked well, were > > > able to access our email easily from anywhere including > > > blackberries. The office here is using windows live with the > > > exception of me, I use Thunderbird with IMAP. I highly recommend > > > IMAP because your mail stays organized all the time. The only > > > problem with IMAP is that when you have multiple subfolders under > > > subfolders it tends to confuse Google during sync. One solution to > > > this is to have no more than one subfolder in your folders. > > > > > > One other downside to the email system is that google combines > > > emails that appear to be from the same person, it sometimes takes a > > > few min for the mail client to see it. > > > > > > Other benefits we have found is the calender, documents, and > > > Sites. We utilize these on a daily basis, were able to share > > > Calendar events, word documents, and even create basic internal > > > secure websites. > > > > > > The only problem with price is that it typically costs about $50 > > > per year per user. So if you have allot of users it might not make > > > sense price wise. > > > > > > The only headache we experienced was the delay of transferring > > > existing emails to the new google servers. Once we got past that > > > it was smooth sailing. > > > > > > Of course the only downside to this is if your internet goes down, > > > but as long as you can access google you get pretty fast results. > > > > > > Andrew Spurbeck > > > RFX Inc > > > 748 Seward St > > > Hollywood, CA 90038 > > > 323-962-7400 > > > 323-962-7444 FAX > > > andrew@rfx.com > > > > > > Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: > > >> > > >> Hey Jamie, looking for a free or cheap solution. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Fatima > > >> > > >> On May 19, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Jamie Clancy wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi fatima. Before anyone can really formulate a proper answer, > > >>> i'd really need to know a price point (i.e. Are you looking at an > > >>> in house solution). From the sound of things you are unsatisfied > > >>> with what is essentially a free to extremely on the cheap > > >>> solution. Not that i will have the best answer of the group, but > > >>> the question does need to be refined. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers! > > >>> > > >>> Jamie > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com > > >>> studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com > > >>> To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com > >>> discuss@studiosysadmins.com> > > >>> Sent: Tue May 19 18:40:17 2009 > > >>> Subject: gmail | thunderbird | mac mail | iphone | imap | pop > > >>> > > >>> I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. > > >>> Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I > > >>> cannot > > >>> even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going > > >>> to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers. > > >>> > > >>> We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X > > >>> workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones. > > >>> > > >>> 1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same > > >>> with my > > >>> personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites > > >>> email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so > > >>> far > > >>> so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google > > >>> apps > > >>> hosting. > > >>> > > >>> If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch > > >>> please let me know. > > >>> > > >>> 2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make > > >>> it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home > > >>> or a laptop and an iphone. > > >>> > > >>> For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' > > >>> settings > > >>> from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were > > >>> not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told > > >>> that > > >>> IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems > > >>> even > > >>> worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync? > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> Fatima > > >>> __ > > >>> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > > >>> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > > >>> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > >>> studiosysadmins-discuss > > >>> __ > > >>> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > > >>> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > > >>> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > >>> studiosysadmins-discuss > > >> > > >> __ > > >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > > >> StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > > >> http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/ > > >> studiosysadmins-discuss > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > __ > > > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > > > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > > > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins- > > > discuss > > > > __ > > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > > > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss > > > __ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss >

does no one have any concerns about using gmail's tools to run your business? Massive harvesting! Feed the machine! 8) -g

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

I'm a little less paranoid than Greg ;-)

But, I agree with owning this yourself. Build it right and figure out some redundancy.

darcy

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

does no one have any concerns about using gmail?s tools to run your business? Massive harvesting! Feed the machine! 8) -g

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

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We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Darcy Danger Reno peetoose@gmail.comwrote:

I'm a little less paranoid than Greg ;-)

But, I agree with owning this yourself. Build it right and figure out some redundancy.

darcy

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

does no one have any concerns about using gmail?s tools to run your business? Massive harvesting! Feed the machine! 8) -g

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com

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Jeffrey Klug wrote: > We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of > months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for > mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work > very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but > that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups > using imapsync. > > I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive > to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the > paranoia we once felt about google. :-) > > JK Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

-- Systems Administrator

---

Soho VFX - Visual Effects Studio 99 Atlantic Avenue, Suite 303 Toronto, Ontario, M6K 3J8 (416) 516-7863 http://www.sohovfx.com

---

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Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I'd think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" jeff@intelligentcreatures.com wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote: Jeffrey Klug wrote: We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

In my opinion, if somebody wants to do harm, our wants to get it (internally or googleally) ..

They will no matter what.

They can just use a keylogger, or just any other method you can think of.. (drug ya, shoot ya, sneak behind your back with a network cable and choke you)

Nothing in the realm of digital is truly safe. Even if you send an email, it still uses a ISP , so get them to sign an NDA.

Who knows.

O.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I?d think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" jeff@intelligentcreatures.com wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it issecure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

Does my ISP sign the NDA? :-)

I guess I was really more addressing the point of security rather than upholding NDA's. Should anyone trust little ol' me to keep things more secure than google does?

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I?d think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" jeff@intelligentcreatures.com wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it issecure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:22 PM, oliver heijmans olivervisualfx@gmail.comwrote:

Nothing in the realm of digital is truly safe. Even if you send an email, it still uses a ISP , so get them to sign an NDA.

Damn, you beat me to it. :-)

AKA:

http://xkcd.com/538/

Andrew

--- On Wed, 5/20/09, oliver heijmans olivervisualfx@gmail.com wrote:

From: oliver heijmans olivervisualfx@gmail.com Subject: Re: gmail To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Received: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 9:22 AM In my opinion, if somebody wants to do harm, our wants to get it (internally or googleally) ..
They will no matter what.
They can just use a keylogger, or just any other method you can think of.. (drug ya, shoot ya, sneak behind your back with a network cable and choke you)
Nothing in the realm of digital is truly safe. Even if you send an email, it still uses a ISP , so get them to sign an NDA.
Who knows.
O.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote:

Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I’d think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" jeff@intelligentcreatures.com wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

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Does my ISP sign the NDA? :-)

good point, but your ISP shouldn't be 'storing' your data, they are a conduit.

I guess I was really more addressing the point of security rather than upholding NDA's. Should anyone trust little ol' me to keep things more secure than google does?

are the google services a paid service or is it free? I suspect if they have a contract with you they are bound by terms. What happens if google experiences a massive fart and losses the last few weeks/months of your data? Are they liable?

my point in all this is people are willing to keep the companies 'jewls' on a hosted service of which they have no control over, in another country, which itself presents legal issues for some. I understand the administrative perspective, and why some would want to delegate this off. Its the legal and 'whats best for the company' things that bother me about it. Maybe I'm just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

time to go hunt for lunch, -g

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote: Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I'd think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" <jeff@intelligentcreatures.com http://jeff@intelligentcreatures.com > wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith <todd@sohovfx.com http://todd@sohovfx.com > wrote: Jeffrey Klug wrote: We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

The question of security is not only a technical issue, but a legal issue.

The best thing to do is ask your legal council for their opionion on how this effects your NDA documents.

Best we not become lawyers and beat lawyers not become technical people.

I wish somebody wrote a nice app, (knowing that the API is available for google)

that pulls your emails and makes a backup.. Mm, maybe i'll ask somebody to write that..

It concerns me ;) and on that note i agree with Mr. Whynott..

One thing that now concerns me NOW tho, is that Mr Whynott has enough drugs in his facility (probably can make himself a nice truth serum), and I live 2 blocks away, so my google security is now at breech, with the great cartoon that was sent.. :)

O.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

Does my ISP sign the NDA? :-)

good point, but your ISP shouldn?t be ?storing? your data, they are a conduit.

I guess I was really more addressing the point of security rather than

upholding NDA's. Should anyone trust little ol' me to keep things more secure than google does?

are the google services a paid service or is it free? I suspect if they have a contract with you they are bound by terms. What happens if google experiences a massive fart and losses the last few weeks/months of your data? Are they liable?

my point in all this is people are willing to keep the companies ?jewls? on a hosted service of which they have no control over, in another country, which itself presents legal issues for some. I understand the administrative perspective, and why some would want to delegate this off. Its the legal and ?whats best for the company? things that bother me about it. Maybe I?m just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

time to go hunt for lunch, -g

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote:

Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I?d think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" <jeff@intelligentcreatures.com http://jeff@intelligentcreatures.com > wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it issecure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith <todd@sohovfx.com http://todd@sohovfx.com > wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

You may be an old fart, but you're also a good sysadmin. You (and many of the sysadmins on the list) are able to deliver better value for the company by implementing the mail system yourself than by going to an external service.

For people with less experience or ability, Google might be able to do a better job. "Google went down" might work better for some than "I don't know what RAID is and I forgot to do backups and all our data is gone".

Andrew

--- On Wed, 5/20/09, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote:

From: Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca Subject: Re: gmail To: "studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com" studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Received: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 9:35 AM

Re: gmail

Does my

ISP sign the NDA? :-)

good point, but your ISP shouldn’t be ‘storing’ your data, they are a conduit.

I guess I was really more addressing the point of

security rather than upholding NDA's. Should anyone trust little ol' me to keep things more secure than google does?

are the google services a paid service or is it free? I suspect if they have a contract with you they are bound by terms. What happens if google experiences a massive fart and losses the last few weeks/months of your data? Are they liable?

my point in all this is people are willing to keep the companies ‘jewls’ on a hosted service of which they have no control over, in another country, which itself presents legal issues for some. I understand the administrative perspective, and why some would want to delegate this off. Its the legal and ‘whats best for the company’ things that bother me about it. Maybe I’m just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

time to go hunt for lunch,

-g

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote:

Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I’d think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" <jeff@intelligentcreatures.com http://jeff@intelligentcreatures.com > wrote:

I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith <todd@sohovfx.com http://todd@sohovfx.com > wrote:

Jeffrey Klug wrote:

We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK

Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers

Todd

--

Gregory Whynott

Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research

MaRS Centre, South Tower

101 College Street, Suite 800

Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

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Andrew Klaassen wrote: > "Google went down" might work better for some than "I don't know what RAID is and I forgot to do backups and all our data is gone". > >
The sysadmin clause :). If you don't know how to do it task it to someone else and blame them when it goes wrong.

Too bad we're still responsible for getting it back up.

Cheers Todd

--

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

the legal and ?whats best for the company? things that bother me about it. Maybe I?m just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

If someone raises all these concerns about hosting mail externally and I say: "meh"... that probably makes me the complacent one. :-)

JK

FYI.... Haven't looked that deep into this but will be checking it out.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2009/tc20090513_247160.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

http://www.zoho.com/

"Zoho's technology lets GE store data in-house, on its own servers, making it easier to adhere to computer security and accounting policies for sensitive business information. Google Apps, on the other hand, store data on Google's servers."

Trace

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Jeffrey Klug jeff@intelligentcreatures.com wrote:

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.cawrote:

the legal and ?whats best for the company? things that bother me about it. Maybe I?m just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

If someone raises all these concerns about hosting mail externally and I say: "meh"... that probably makes me the complacent one. :-)

JK

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I had read an article on Network World that one company was sued by its employee for storing confidential documents on google's server (breaching their contract agreement). I am unable to dig up this article.

It really depends on how you view security to make a decision on where you can store your documents.

Eppie

Trace Bloomer wrote: > FYI.... > Haven't looked that deep into this but will be checking it out. > > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2009/tc20090513_247160.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily > > http://www.zoho.com/ > > "Zoho's technology lets GE store data in-house, on its own servers, > making it easier to adhere to computer security and accounting > policies for sensitive business information. Google Apps, on the other > hand, store data on Google's servers." > > > Trace > > > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Jeffrey Klug > <jeff@intelligentcreatures.com jeff@intelligentcreatures.com> > wrote: > > > On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Greg Whynott > <Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca> wrote: > > the legal and ?whats best for the company? things that > bother me about it. Maybe I?m just complacent and not > receptive to change... 8) > > > If someone raises all these concerns about hosting mail externally > and I say: "meh"... that probably makes me the complacent one. :-) > > JK > > > _ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _ > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list > StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com > http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss >

There is an "offline" option in labs that stores the mail locally on your computer :)

Sending this from my personal email now hosted on Google ;)

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:42 AM, oliver heijmans olivervisualfx@gmail.comwrote:

I wish somebody wrote a nice app, (knowing that the API is available for google)

that pulls your emails and makes a backup.. Mm, maybe i'll ask somebody to write that..

It concerns me ;) and on that note i agree with Mr. Whynott..

One thing that now concerns me NOW tho, is that Mr Whynott has enough drugs in his facility (probably can make himself a nice truth serum), and I live 2 blocks away, so my google security is now at breech, with the great cartoon that was sent.. :)

O.

http://gmail.google.com/mail/help/privacy.html We were using postini and other spam / black hole services. The additional leap to trust google with email was small.

It boils down to how much it costs in time and $'s to admin a mail server. Gmail takes less time. It takes less time in training, admin and maint. Most users like the web interface better. Those that dont still have thier fav client. We still run a mail server but users are off on google.

To back something up is to keep it in two (or more) places. Having a pop client, the mail stays at google and is 'copied' to the client. Automatic backup? With apps/api you can do all accts and backup to 'cough' tape. 400GB USB drives are now cheaper than dlt's. Toss everything on a drive and send it off to storage... Anywhere other than Iron Mountain.

Never trust in RAID only.

You may be an old fart, but you're also a good sysadmin. You (and many of the sysadmins on the list) are able to deliver better value for the company by implementing the mail system yourself than by going to an external service.

For people with less experience or ability, Google might be able to do a better job. "Google went down" might work better for some than "I don't know what RAID is and I forgot to do backups and all our data is gone".

Andrew

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Fatima Mojaddidy fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com wrote:

There is an "offline" option in labs that stores the mail locally on your computer :)

Sending this from my personal email now hosted on Google ;)

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:42 AM, oliver heijmans olivervisualfx@gmail.com wrote:

I wish somebody wrote a nice app, (knowing that the API is available for google)

that pulls your emails and makes a backup.. Mm, maybe i'll ask somebody to write that..

It concerns me ;) and on that note i agree with Mr. Whynott..

One thing that now concerns me NOW tho, is that Mr Whynott has enough drugs in his facility (probably can make himself a nice truth serum), and I live 2 blocks away, so my google security is now at breech, with the great cartoon that was sent.. :)

O.

_ StudioSysAdmins-Discuss mailing list StudioSysAdmins-Discuss@studiosysadmins.com http://mailman.studiosysadmins.com/mailman/listinfo/studiosysadmins-discuss

david hodgson wrote: >
> It boils down to how much it costs in time and $'s to admin a mail > server. Gmail takes less time. > It takes less time in training, admin and maint. Most users like the > web interface better. Those that dont still have thier fav client. > We still run a mail server but users are off on google. >
> To back something up is to keep it in two (or more) places. > Having a pop client, the mail stays at google and is 'copied' to the > client. Automatic backup? > With apps/api you can do all accts and backup to 'cough' tape.
> 400GB USB drives are now cheaper than dlt's. Toss everything on a > drive and send it off to storage... Anywhere other than Iron Mountain. >
> Never trust in RAID only. Can you limit the size of an email with Google? Can you monitor attachments? Do you have a local copy of the mailbox that the user cannot delete should you need to prove something in a court of law?

These are very real problems in a short contract based industry such as visual effects.

This should probably be put in another thread. 400GB drives maybe close to DLT prices (we buy LTO4's for the price of a decent 400GB drive), but the reliability of that drive in the long term is still to be proven versus tape.

Cheers Todd

--

You're worried about people sending out screenshots and things they're not supposed to, then? What's to stop them from doing that now? Are you blocking access to their personal email, facebook, flickr, rapidshare, etc... accounts? If not, are you doing anything to impose size limits or monitor what they do with those personal accounts? You sure you're catching everything ?

At what point does the effort become futile and costly for the company? Would my bosses want me to spend my time acting like big brother or would they rather I do something more productive with my time? Making sure people are aware of how hard the hammer will fall on them if they break NDA might be a more effective tactic. Plus, I probably don't have to monitor too carefully as long as they THINK I'm monitoring what they do. :-)

As for the backups issue... since the email is accessible via pop and imap and there also exists support for email migration, user/group syncing in the api, there should really be no trouble with keeping local backups if you desire. Backup to drive for convenience, AND to tape for longevity. Problem solved.

Just make sure to keep those no-good, pesky, untrustworthy artists away from the data. :-)

JK

PS. Force all your users through a web proxy and monitor their activity through there. You'd be surprised by what you can pull out of your squid logs.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

david hodgson wrote:

It boils down to how much it costs in time and $'s to admin a mail server. Gmail takes less time. It takes less time in training, admin and maint. Most users like the web interface better. Those that dont still have thier fav client. We still run a mail server but users are off on google. To back something up is to keep it in two (or more) places. Having a pop client, the mail stays at google and is 'copied' to the client. Automatic backup? With apps/api you can do all accts and backup to 'cough' tape. 400GB USB drives are now cheaper than dlt's. Toss everything on a drive and send it off to storage... Anywhere other than Iron Mountain. Never trust in RAID only.

Can you limit the size of an email with Google? Can you monitor attachments? Do you have a local copy of the mailbox that the user cannot delete should you need to prove something in a court of law?

These are very real problems in a short contract based industry such as visual effects. This should probably be put in another thread. 400GB drives maybe close to DLT prices (we buy LTO4's for the price of a decent 400GB drive), but the reliability of that drive in the long term is still to be proven versus tape.

Cheers Todd

-- Systems Administrator

---

Soho VFX - Visual Effects Studio 99 Atlantic Avenue, Suite 303 Toronto, Ontario, M6K 3J8 (416) 516-7863 http://www.sohovfx.com

---

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On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 7:20 AM, david hodgson orderentry@syf.com wrote: > The best reason for me, is when people want to gripe, you can say 'just call > Google and tell them'. > Ok... You can think it!

I know this was intended as a joke, but this was one of the main reasons we use Google Apps. We are a small startup, so using Google Apps instantly increased our IT support availability for more core services. We have several employees and off-site contractors who work from home, so off-site reliability is just important as on-site. While we do have redundant WAN connections, we definitely can't afford the same level of ISP SLA as a Google. They also provide several avenues of online support, including Google Apps Help and Google Groups forums, that our users can access directly before calling us.

This is what I say to all the security/business concerns (this applies to the other gmail thread too):

• Email is a convenient communication method, as are phones and IM, but they are not a core part of our business.

• Email was never designed as a real-time communications method, so it should never be used for emergency or immediate communication needs.

• Email tends to be faster than snail mail, but it has never been guaranteed to be faster, or at least not by anyone with knowledge of how the system really works.

(Here's the key point: )

• Anyone who says anycommunications_medium_ is secure without end-to-end encryption is deluded. They are deluded about their physical site security, their users' password strength, the ease with which cables (and wireless backhaul) are tapped, and how store-and-forward Internet devices work, let alone how MX/SMTP message transfer/forwarding really works. They don't realize that "security through obscurity" is a complete falsehood. They don't know what DPI stands for. No form of communications is secure, no matter where the servers and routers involved are physically hosted, no matter where the connecting lines are routed, without encryption. That's why SSL and PGP are so great! No mail can be considered secure without PGP encryption and signing. No file transfer is secure without some form of SSL transfer, like HTTPS, SFTP, or FTPES. Faxes and phones are never secure, unless you have special encryption equipment at both ends. VoIP wont be secure until something like Voice-PGP (i.e. Zfone) is widely available. Any promises or "legal" statements about communications security, without proven end-to-end encryption methods, are all futile.

  I don't care who is on this StudioSysAdmins list -- anyone with the will and know-how can read this email, at any time, because it has been delivered as plain text. It has been stored and forwarded by countless MX/SMTP servers along its wayward path to your inbox. It has crossed NSA-tapped lines many times over. It is probably being picked out by the NSA filters because I mention their TLA. None of us would ever know about any uninvited intrusion on this email list, unless they choose to reveal themselves.

We forbid using HTTP (Auth) and FTP without encryption for any

sensitive off-site file transfers, and we ask the same of all our clients and contractors. We inform all clients that we consider no email secure until they provide us with their PGP public key, and we provide ours up front. That security is free, including with Google Apps, but it requires training and some extra client configuration. GPG4Win even includes a free PGP plug-in for the Outlook-loving luddites. ;)

We set up all our on-site users with Thunderbird, GPG[4Win], and

Enigmail, and provide all off-site users with the download links and setup instructions. We use Pidgin with the Pidgin-Encrypt plug-in for XMPP IM connections. These are all multi-platform applications, so this works for all user types. Users are free to use their own client preferences as well, and we provide many configuration guides via Google Apps Help, Google Groups, and other sources like LifeHacker, but we only support Thunderbird/Enigmail and Pidgin directly (as a policy). We encourage (and enforce on-site) the use of IMAP caching, IM logging, and frequent backups of local storage. We also have a separate IMAP service configured on stand-by at our ISP, so we can switch pretty quickly if the unthinkable happens. The ISP webmail software stinks, so we will avoid that until it is absolutely necessary.

Even in the early Beta stages, Google Apps was down no longer than a

4-hour period, and only for a small user subset at that. That's much better than our previous ISP. We haven't had any service loss longer than a couple of hours for over a year now. Gmail/Calendar also has a "Sync" service now, which fools Exchange clients (like my old WinMo phone) into thinking it has an Exchange server connection. Between HTTPS, HTML5, GoogleGears, Chrome, POP, IMAP, iCal, and Sync/Exchange-emulation, the Google Apps client access and caching possibilities are limitless. All it really needs is a PGP-Java service like Hushmail. I dare you to match its service level at any price.

Jared Hardy Senior Engineer High Impact Games

Jeff Wrote: > You're worried about people sending out screenshots and things they're > not supposed to, then? What's to stop them from doing that now? Are you > blocking access to their personal email, facebook, flickr, rapidshare, > etc... accounts? If not, are you doing anything to impose size limits or > monitor what they do with those personal accounts? You sure you're > catching > everything ?

Personal accounts and everything else you mention as well as a plethora of other things are all blocked in various manners and monitored daily.

At what point does the effort become futile and costly for the company? Would my bosses want me to spend my time acting like big brother or would they rather I do something more productive with my time? Making sure people are aware of how hard the hammer will fall on them if they break NDA > > might be a more effective tactic. Plus, I probably don't have to

monitor > too carefully as long as they THINK I'm monitoring what they do. :-) >

I absolutely agree. However much of the vfx industry is still run in a more traditional contract work setting wherein reputation and a trusting handshake are measured almost as highly as the talent of the studio at large.

In the public sector and other parts of the private sector a slip-up may not be harshly judged. In this industry however you lose your job for mentioning in a blog that you downloaded a workprint of some movie done by a studio that owns a company that you are related to only tangentially.

In this situation the entire studio is aware of what it means to work on this content, however that doesn't account for emotionally rash decisions or those who think they are better than the system they work in. With that in mind I do regular checking, constant monitoring and do my best to stay one step ahead of the users. That is part of the job I signed up to do and something the owners of this company are very happy that I am able to integrate into my daily tasks.

As for the backups issue... since the email is accessible via pop and > > imap and there also exists support for email migration, user/group > > > syncing in the api, there should really be no trouble with keeping local backups if you desire. Backup to drive for convenience, AND to tape for longevity. Problem solved.

The problem I was trying to lurk into getting an answer for was if the user decides to solely use the webmail portion of the gmail API, does google offer a way to reconcile deleted mail to the administrative user? Perhaps someone using it can answer that for me. Audit trails are crucial and I'm interested to know if Google has given that sort of administrative control.

Just make sure to keep those no-good, pesky, untrustworthy artists away from the data. :-)

Once bitten twice shy.

Cheers Todd

All very good points. Postini has the history of the emails and you can search and sort and have saved searches and all sorts of events from inbound mail. I've not explored the outbound filtering ability.

Postini is very set up for 'investigations' of email.

While we have the firewall blocking outbound email from stealth clients and have many web mail clients blocked. The users are very clever about finding a way out, especially with some p2p apps that look just like regular traffic even to packet inspection.

David Hodgson, Syncro Services, 333 7th Ave, 10th floor, New York, NY 10001

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:32 PM, M. Todd Smith todd@sohovfx.com wrote:

Jeff Wrote: > You're worried about people sending out screenshots and things they're > not supposed to, then? What's to stop them from doing that now? Are you > blocking access to their personal email, facebook, flickr, rapidshare, > etc... accounts? If not, are you doing anything to impose size limits or > monitor what they do with those personal accounts? You sure you're > catching > everything ?

Personal accounts and everything else you mention as well as a plethora of other things are all blocked in various manners and monitored daily.

At what point does the effort become futile and costly for the company? Would my bosses want me to spend my time acting like big brother or would they rather I do something more productive with my time? Making sure people are aware of how hard the hammer will fall on them if they break NDA > > might be a more effective tactic. Plus, I probably don't have to

monitor > too carefully as long as they THINK I'm monitoring what they do. :-) >

I absolutely agree. However much of the vfx industry is still run in a more traditional contract work setting wherein reputation and a trusting handshake are measured almost as highly as the talent of the studio at large.

In the public sector and other parts of the private sector a slip-up may not be harshly judged. In this industry however you lose your job for mentioning in a blog that you downloaded a workprint of some movie done by a studio that owns a company that you are related to only tangentially.

In this situation the entire studio is aware of what it means to work on this content, however that doesn't account for emotionally rash decisions or those who think they are better than the system they work in. With that in mind I do regular checking, constant monitoring and do my best to stay one step ahead of the users. That is part of the job I signed up to do and something the owners of this company are very happy that I am able to integrate into my daily tasks.

As for the backups issue... since the email is accessible via pop and > > imap and there also exists support for email migration, user/group > > > syncing in the api, there should really be no trouble with keeping local backups if you desire. Backup to drive for convenience, AND to tape for longevity. Problem solved.

The problem I was trying to lurk into getting an answer for was if the user decides to solely use the webmail portion of the gmail API, does google offer a way to reconcile deleted mail to the administrative user? Perhaps someone using it can answer that for me. Audit trails are crucial and I'm interested to know if Google has given that sort of administrative control.

Just make sure to keep those no-good, pesky, untrustworthy artists away from the data. :-)

Once bitten twice shy.

Cheers Todd

Systems Administrator -- Soho VFX 99 Atlantc Ave. Suite 303 Toronto, Ontario M6K-3J8 (416)516-7863 x240

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Certainly outsourced mail that is as simple as Gmail isn't for everyone. Its a great tool for offloading a LOT of work though. Gmail/yahoo mail can still integrate with exchange and other tools.

Can you limit the size of an email with Google? Can you monitor attachments? Do you have a local copy of the mailbox that the user cannot delete should you need to prove something in a court of law?

Somewhat limited in the outbound size filter department. http://www.postini.com/webdocs/pgmr_admin/wwhelp/wwhimpl/js/html/wwhelp.htm but we send previews out a lot and you never know what size is going to be bounced so the users send and then send a link back to the asset as well.

In past experiences, having a short retention policy was critical! If your policy was 90 days, you could never be foced to give up all your IP to someone on a fishing trip.

These are very real problems in a short contract based industry such as

visual effects. This should probably be put in another thread. 400GB drives maybe close to DLT prices (we buy LTO4's for the price of a decent 400GB drive), but the reliability of that drive in the long term is still to be proven versus tape.

A great topic for another thread. Long term storage. Amazon? But we have wharehouses full of magnetic tapes. Lots of it on formats that perhaps one facility in NYC has... 2" u-matic anyone?

Cheers Todd

-- Systems Administrator

---

Soho VFX - Visual Effects Studio 99 Atlantic Avenue, Suite 303 Toronto, Ontario, M6K 3J8 (416) 516-7863 http://www.sohovfx.com

---

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my oh my what a can of worms i've opened! lol

on the serious tip tho this has all been very educational for me, so THANK YOU for all of your valuable inputs and advice. i've got a lot of reading and research to do if and when time permits. for right now i'm switching our email to gmail. will def update the thread on how it all goes, good and/or bad.

peace, fatima

To add to what Greg said, email can also be locked down between you and your client. Most current MTA's support TLS and you then should be able to send data between you and your client encrypted without having to use personal PGP/GPG keys - you just have to generate certificate pairs for each of your servers. That's hard to do with gmail. :)

As far as local mail servers go, I personally use sendmail (as that's what I know) with Cyrus as the storage engine. Both will support virtual domains, and Cyrus supports mail clusters, is quite scalable, supports sieve scripting for server based filtering/vacation notices, is easy to back up and recover, supports quotas, and supports a wide range of authentication engines.

PS Sorry for the top post. I hate exchange 2007!

[cid:image001.gif@01C9D9F1.61789D10]http://www.3group.ca/

Rob Dueckman Senior Systems Engineer B. 647-728-4303 | F. 416-850-4348 D. 647-728-4713 | C. 416-460-4263 E. duke@3Group.caduke@3Group.ca 3Group Ltd. | 3049 Universal Drive | Mississauga, ON L4X 2E2 www.3Group.cahttp://www.3group.ca/

From: studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com [mailto:studiosysadmins-discuss-bounces@studiosysadmins.com] On Behalf Of Greg Whynott Sent: May-20-09 12:36 PM To: studiosysadmins-discuss@studiosysadmins.com Subject: Re: gmail

Does my ISP sign the NDA? :-)

good point, but your ISP shouldn't be 'storing' your data, they are a conduit.

I guess I was really more addressing the point of security rather than upholding NDA's. Should anyone trust little ol' me to keep things more secure than google does?

are the google services a paid service or is it free? I suspect if they have a contract with you they are bound by terms. What happens if google experiences a massive fart and losses the last few weeks/months of your data? Are they liable?

my point in all this is people are willing to keep the companies 'jewls' on a hosted service of which they have no control over, in another country, which itself presents legal issues for some. I understand the administrative perspective, and why some would want to delegate this off. Its the legal and 'whats best for the company' things that bother me about it. Maybe I'm just complacent and not receptive to change... 8)

time to go hunt for lunch, -g

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Greg Whynott Greg.Whynott@oicr.on.ca wrote: Lots of assumptions, but hey, its your party. 8)

Does google sign the NDA clients hold you to? Is there language in the contract that says its ok to host data off site?

Here at work, it is a policy violation to send company related email to google or any other 3rd party email hosting service; as is with many other large companies I'd think.

Not trying to start anything, just curious why so many think it is ok, I often thought it was because it is the easiest thing to do...

-g

On 5/20/09 11:58 AM, "Jeffrey Klug" <jeff@intelligentcreatures.com http://jeff@intelligentcreatures.com > wrote: I believe that my mail hosted on Google is probably about as secure as it is hosted on my own server.

Regardless of how secure I keep our secret data, my users will likely find some way to "feed the machine." My efforts are better spent trying to educate my users about protecting the data rather than spending all my time worrying about how to protect it for them.

Probably the only way for me to keep our email secure and private would be to convince the entire world to encrypt all email messages with PGP, never share their private keys or allow anyone access to a computer that stores their private keys, send only using encrypted protocols, and make sure that absolutely nobody other than myself has either physical or remote access to the server(s) storing any mail, anywhere. Obviously, that ain't gonna happen.

Also, I don't think I want to get on the phone and teach studio execs how to generate PGP keys and encrypt their messages, or receive calls from the same people complaining that the email they received by us looks like gobbledygook.

Basically, I could spend all my time worrying about email security, or I could just decide whether a service like google is "secure enough" and move on to more pressing matters. I believe that for my needs, it is secure enough. YMMV.

I don't believe we're in violation of any NDA. Unless of course the NDA specifically disallows the use of google mail. :-)

JK

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Todd Smith <todd@sohovfx.com http://todd@sohovfx.com > wrote: Jeffrey Klug wrote: We had been handling our mail internally using Zimbra. A couple of months ago I chose to swallow the blue pill and move to google for mail. We've been very happy with it so far. The migration tools work very well. There were some problems initially with subfolders, but that's all worked out now. If we want, we can keep local backups using imapsync.

I'm sure in the future, our borg children will receive the directive to enter into state of collective amusement when remembering the paranoia we once felt about google. :-)

JK Considering that some if not a great source of sensitive material is passed via email how do you reconcile using an external service like google to handle such important information?

More of a rhetorical question really. With NDA's that are starting to look more and more like the New Testament I am finding it hard to reason with myself in favour of putting any information in the cloud.

Cheers Todd

--

Gregory Whynott Networks and Storage

Ontario Institute for Cancer Research MaRS Centre, South Tower 101 College Street, Suite 800 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G 0A3

www.oicr.on.ca | 647-294-2813

Hey Trace,

Sounds like you guys succesfully made the switch to Gmail. Im
interested in Gmail 'success stories' as I'm trying to see jow
feasible it is for us to potentially outsource our email as well.

I know Halon has some pretty big shot customers - did you guys have to
worry about any issues with your legal guys as far as contracts or
audits or anything?

I keep hearing from mgmt that our customers and contracts will
probably forbid us from storing our email with a 3rd party, but have
yet to see any evidence of that myself.

Did you run into anything along those lines? i.e. Grief from your
legal department

On May 19, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Trace Bloomer trace@halon.com wrote:

Fatima,

I came from an Microsoft Exchange/Office background to a Studio that
decided after too many Exchange database disasters to move
everything to Google Apps. A few hiccups going from Thunderbird/Outlook clients over to
Google; nothing drastic and all fixable with minimal effort. You can use POP and check the keep email on server in Domain
Management Console, so it stays stored in both places. We have both
protocols going. We have all iPhones and Blackberrys setup with our Google Apps
Domain email, calendars and chat. No licensing tracking to really worry about except $50 a year per
seat renewal. Included Office. No more purchasing or tracking licenses and
worrying about upgrades or compatability issues. They are offering a new option where it Gmail and Google Docs will
store a copy locally to handle "What if the network goes down and I
can't get to anything?" I haven't regreted it and it makes my life so much easier, than
constantly worrying about Exchange.

Trace Bloomer IT Manager Halon Entertainment

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Fatima Mojaddidy wrote: I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email.
Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I
cannot even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just
going to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X
workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with
my personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal
sites email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well
so far so the next step is to switch our company domain email to
google apps hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch
please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make
it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home
or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts'
settings from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac
Mail were not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I
was told that IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so.
POP seems even worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect
sync?

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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

Hey Trace,

Sounds like you guys succesfully made the switch to Gmail.  Im interested in Gmail 'success stories' as I'm trying to see jow feasible it is for us to potentially outsource our email as well.

I know Halon has some pretty big shot customers - did you guys have to worry about any issues with your legal guys as far as contracts or audits or anything?

I keep hearing from mgmt that our customers and contracts will probably forbid us from storing our email with a 3rd party, but have yet to see any evidence of that myself.

Did you run into anything along those lines?  i.e. Grief from your legal department

 

On May 19, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Trace Bloomer <trace@halon.com> wrote:

Fatima,

 

I came from an Microsoft Exchange/Office background to a Studio that decided after too many Exchange database disasters to move everything to Google Apps.

•  A few hiccups going from Thunderbird/Outlook clients over to Google; nothing drastic and all fixable with minimal effort.
• You can use POP and check the keep email on server in Domain Management Console, so it stays stored in both places. We have both protocols going.
• We have all iPhones and Blackberrys setup with our Google Apps Domain email, calendars and chat.
• No licensing tracking to really worry about except $50 a year per seat renewal.
• Included Office. No more purchasing or tracking licenses and worrying about upgrades or compatability issues.
• They are offering a new option where it Gmail and Google Docs will store a copy locally to handle "What if the network goes down and I can't get to anything?"

I haven't regreted it and it makes my life so much easier, than constantly worrying about Exchange.

 

Trace Bloomer

IT Manager

Halon Entertainment

 

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Fatima Mojaddidy <fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

Thanks,
Fatima
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Hey Mike,

The transfer to Gmail/Google Apps was successful. No legal worries. We do use Gmail a bit differently though.

• Work related emails are text communication only.
• Any Client attachments and project files are transferred through our secure file server.

~Trace

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Mike Thompson mike.thompson@gmail.comwrote:

Hey Trace,

Sounds like you guys succesfully made the switch to Gmail. Im interested in Gmail 'success stories' as I'm trying to see jow feasible it is for us to potentially outsource our email as well.

I know Halon has some pretty big shot customers - did you guys have to worry about any issues with your legal guys as far as contracts or audits or anything?

I keep hearing from mgmt that our customers and contracts will probably forbid us from storing our email with a 3rd party, but have yet to see any evidence of that myself.

Did you run into anything along those lines? i.e. Grief from your legal department

On May 19, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Trace Bloomer trace@halon.com wrote:

Fatima,

I came from an Microsoft Exchange/Office background to a Studio that decided after too many Exchange database disasters to move everything to Google Apps.

• A few hiccups going from Thunderbird/Outlook clients over to Google; nothing drastic and all fixable with minimal effort.
• You can use POP and check the keep email on server in Domain Management Console, so it stays stored in both places. We have both protocols going.
• We have all iPhones and Blackberrys setup with our Google Apps Domain email, calendars and chat.
• No licensing tracking to really worry about except $50 a year per seat renewal.
• Included Office. No more purchasing or tracking licenses and worrying about upgrades or compatability issues.
• They are offering a new option where it Gmail and Google Docs will store a copy locally to handle "What if the network goes down and I can't get to anything?"

I haven't regreted it and it makes my life so much easier, than constantly worrying about Exchange.

Trace Bloomer IT Manager Halon Entertainment

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Fatima Mojaddidy <fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com fatima.mojaddidy@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to the workings of email. Finding a better email solution has got me so perplexed that I cannot even ask my questions in a logical/organized manner. I'm just going to lay it all out and hope to receive well organized answers.

We have Thunderbird (on Linux workstations) and Mac Mail (on OS X workstations) users who also now want mail on their iPhones.

1) I am sick of our web-hosting company's email service. Same with my personal sites hosting email service. So, I moved my personal sites email domain to google using google apps. It's been going well so far so the next step is to switch our company domain email to google apps hosting.

If anyone has any input on the pros and cons of making that switch please let me know.

2) The next phase would be choosing POP or IMAP. The goal is to make it easy for employees who use a computer at work, a computer at home or a laptop and an iphone.

For testing purposes, I switched my personal email accounts' settings from POP to IMAP and it was disaster. My emails on my Mac Mail were not truly in sync with what was being shown on gmail. I was told that IMAP would solve this problem but it does not seem so. POP seems even worse. Any ideas on how to keep everything in perfect sync?

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